great martin.
thanks for driving the thing

jodok

On 05.04.2008, at 17:52, Martin Aspeli wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> The rumours are true. :) An effort has been going on for a while to  
> improve the zope.org experience and thereby help make Zope more  
> accessible to new users.
>
> I've helped co-ordinate it, but the project has been sanctioned by  
> the Zope Foundation and driven by people like Martijn, Philipp,  
> Wichert and others. Given Martijn's excellent blog post today (http://faassen.n--tree.net/blog/view/weblog/2008/04/05/0 
> ) and recent progress we've made, I thought it timely to open up and  
> ask for your help.
>
> Here's what we have achieved so far:
>
> - A great design by Oliver Ruhm, paid for by Lovely Systems
> - A Plone 3 site hosted by Lovely Systems
> - A skin for this site by Denis Mishunoff
> - A skeleton content structure
> - A plan for going forward
>
> Now we need people to help contribute content, review the content  
> that's already there and tie up a few loose ends.
>
> You can see current state of play here: http://zode01.lovelysystems.com 
> .
>
> The original design mockups from Oliver are here: http://woimmer.com/presenter/zope.org/1.html
>
> We have agreed a plan going forward with the Zope Foundation.  
> Basically, we want to move the current zope.org off into a separate  
> domain, e.g. old.zope.org. We explicitly do not want to port  
> existing content from zope.org wholesale, because (a) most of it's  
> out of date and (b) this would be a huge effort. We'll need to  
> provide some aliases for downloads that people (and buildouts)  
> expect to find on zope.org, but this can be managed using Plone's  
> RedirectionTool.
>
> We also want to start small. Some things, like planet.zope.org,  
> wiki.zope.org and foundation.zope.org stay where they are for now.  
> Existing documentation should be ported over manually, and subject  
> to quality and relevancy review in the process.
>
> We want to tackle the external face of Zope first. Membership of the  
> site will be by invitation (i.e. ask me and I'll give you an  
> account), for content authors only. We don't want to allow arbitrary  
> "home folders" - at least not just yet. Again, some things probably  
> need to be moved over, but there is too much cruft on the old  
> zope.org to move it wholesale.
>
> There has been a lot of discussion around the "message" we want to  
> send. The current zope.org is quite confusing to people who are not  
> familiar with the intricate history of Zope. In short, the message  
> we want to project is:
>
> - Zope is an established, mature, "enterprise ready" project
>
> - If you don't know where to start, start with Grok (note that Grok  
> has its own website, which we link to when relevant)
>
> - There is a common framework that unites Zope 2, Zope 3 (the app  
> server) and Grok. We often call this "Zope 3" internally, but for  
> the purposes of explanation, we will try to refer to the core "web  
> application" libraries as the "Zope Libaries".
>
> - We want to frame the ZODB as something that can be used without  
> Zope as well as an integral part of Zope
>
> To that end, the website is divided up into sections:
>
> - "Home" gives a quick overview and tries to get people excited
>
> - "Get" gives download instructions for the impatient
>
> - "Taste" whets the reader's appetite with some exciting code  
> examples that explain how Zope is different
>
> - "Projects" gives an explanation of how the different Zope projects  
> fit together (Zope 2, Zope 3, Grok, CMF, ZODB). Each is then given a  
> subfolder that contains a standard structure: A front page that  
> explains the project in more detail, "Get" (downloads), "Taste" (as  
> above, but for a particular project) and "Learn". The "Learn"  
> section should contain relevant, up-to-date documentation.
>
> - "Community" gives some details about how to join the Zope community
>
> - "Foundation" links to the Foundation site for now. If the  
> Foundation website maintainers want to move into this site in the  
> future, they are of course more than welcome to.
>
> Now, you'll notice that a lot of content is missing! This is where  
> we need volunteers.
>
>  o Critical reviewer -- I would like someone to review the text on
> the site from time to time and offer feedback on clarity, style,
> consistency and message. This person may either act as editor and  
> change
> things on the fly, or just ask the relevant author to change  
> something.
> Ideally, this is someone with an opinion on "Zope" as a whole and its
> place in the world. Jan Ulrich Hasecke has volunteered for this. I  
> think we may need two or three people for this role, though.
>
>  o "Get" section content champion -- needs to complete this section,
> writing about grokproject, zopeproject and probably a manual/source
> install. Needs to write clear instructions that work on all target
> platforms. We can split this section into sub-pages if need be.
>
>  o "Taste" section champion -- needs to complete this section with  
> some
> "tasty" code examples that get people excited about Zope. They don't
> have to be 100% complete applications; rather, they should show what
> sets Zope apart. A developer should be able to read this and think "I
> could get with this". I think we can maybe adopt something from the
> Appetizers section on worldcookery.com, or invent new examples. They
> could use Grok or plain Zope 3. This probably requires something  
> with a
> strong technical background. I'd love for this to be Philipp, since he
> always does well with this kind of thing in presentations and  
> training,
> though I'm not sure how much time he'll have.
>
>  o "Community" section champion -- needs to provide some details about
> the Zope mailing lists/forums and chatroom. Perhaps include  
> etiquette as
> well. This can probably be cribbed from plone.org/support.
>
> Then, we need a champion for each of the sub-projects. These are:
>
>  - Zope 3 and the "Zope Libraries" -- this is the most important one  
> in
> the short term!
>
>  - Zope 2
>
>  - CMF
>
>  - ZODB
>
> Grok has its own home page, though I think we should keep referring to
> it where it makes sense.
>
> Please reply to this thread if you are interested in helping out! I  
> know various people have expressed an interest in the past. I hope  
> they'll reconfirm their commitment now. Hopefully, we can get the  
> content completed in a few weeks and then begin the move to making  
> this the thing that people see when they hit zope.org.
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
> -- 
> Author of `Professional Plone Development`, a book for developers who
> want to work with Plone. See http://martinaspeli.net/plone-book
>
> _______________________________________________
> Zope-Dev maillist  -  Zope-Dev@...
> http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev
> **  No cross posts or HTML encoding!  **
> (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
> http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )

--
"Beautiful is better than ugly."
   -- The Zen of Python, by Tim Peters

Jodok Batlogg, Lovely Systems GmbH
Schmelzhütterstraße 26a, 6850 Dornbirn, Austria
mobile: +43 664 9636963, phone: +43 5572 908060

Hi Martin. I would like to help with Zope 3 but could not commit to 
championing the effort as much as I might like to due to time 
constraints. I am prepared to write some articles, help with an 
introduction, or help review in conjunction with someone leading the 
Zope 3 effort. Are any of the lovely or zope corp folks on the z3 side 
willing to champion or participate? Is there an outline somewhere that I 
can determine something concrete to work on? Let me know. I like the 
design BTW and this is definitely a good news development.

Regards,
David

Martin Aspeli wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> The rumours are true. :) An effort has been going on for a while to 
> improve the zope.org experience and thereby help make Zope more 
> accessible to new users.
> 
> I've helped co-ordinate it, but the project has been sanctioned by the 
> Zope Foundation and driven by people like Martijn, Philipp, Wichert and 
> others. Given Martijn's excellent blog post today 
> (http://faassen.n--tree.net/blog/view/weblog/2008/04/05/0) and recent 
> progress we've made, I thought it timely to open up and ask for your help.
> 
> Here's what we have achieved so far:
> 
>  - A great design by Oliver Ruhm, paid for by Lovely Systems
>  - A Plone 3 site hosted by Lovely Systems
>  - A skin for this site by Denis Mishunoff
>  - A skeleton content structure
>  - A plan for going forward
> 
> Now we need people to help contribute content, review the content that's 
> already there and tie up a few loose ends.
> 
> You can see current state of play here: http://zode01.lovelysystems.com.
> 
> The original design mockups from Oliver are here: 
> http://woimmer.com/presenter/zope.org/1.html
> 
> We have agreed a plan going forward with the Zope Foundation. Basically, 
> we want to move the current zope.org off into a separate domain, e.g. 
> old.zope.org. We explicitly do not want to port existing content from 
> zope.org wholesale, because (a) most of it's out of date and (b) this 
> would be a huge effort. We'll need to provide some aliases for downloads 
> that people (and buildouts) expect to find on zope.org, but this can be 
> managed using Plone's RedirectionTool.
> 
> We also want to start small. Some things, like planet.zope.org, 
> wiki.zope.org and foundation.zope.org stay where they are for now. 
> Existing documentation should be ported over manually, and subject to 
> quality and relevancy review in the process.
> 
> We want to tackle the external face of Zope first. Membership of the 
> site will be by invitation (i.e. ask me and I'll give you an account), 
> for content authors only. We don't want to allow arbitrary "home 
> folders" - at least not just yet. Again, some things probably need to be 
> moved over, but there is too much cruft on the old zope.org to move it 
> wholesale.
> 
> There has been a lot of discussion around the "message" we want to send. 
> The current zope.org is quite confusing to people who are not familiar 
> with the intricate history of Zope. In short, the message we want to 
> project is:
> 
>  - Zope is an established, mature, "enterprise ready" project
> 
>  - If you don't know where to start, start with Grok (note that Grok has 
> its own website, which we link to when relevant)
> 
>  - There is a common framework that unites Zope 2, Zope 3 (the app 
> server) and Grok. We often call this "Zope 3" internally, but for the 
> purposes of explanation, we will try to refer to the core "web 
> application" libraries as the "Zope Libaries".
> 
>  - We want to frame the ZODB as something that can be used without Zope 
> as well as an integral part of Zope
> 
> To that end, the website is divided up into sections:
> 
>  - "Home" gives a quick overview and tries to get people excited
> 
>  - "Get" gives download instructions for the impatient
> 
>  - "Taste" whets the reader's appetite with some exciting code examples 
> that explain how Zope is different
> 
>  - "Projects" gives an explanation of how the different Zope projects 
> fit together (Zope 2, Zope 3, Grok, CMF, ZODB). Each is then given a 
> subfolder that contains a standard structure: A front page that explains 
> the project in more detail, "Get" (downloads), "Taste" (as above, but 
> for a particular project) and "Learn". The "Learn" section should 
> contain relevant, up-to-date documentation.
> 
>  - "Community" gives some details about how to join the Zope community
> 
>  - "Foundation" links to the Foundation site for now. If the Foundation 
> website maintainers want to move into this site in the future, they are 
> of course more than welcome to.
> 
> Now, you'll notice that a lot of content is missing! This is where we 
> need volunteers.
> 
>   o Critical reviewer -- I would like someone to review the text on
> the site from time to time and offer feedback on clarity, style,
> consistency and message. This person may either act as editor and change
> things on the fly, or just ask the relevant author to change something.
> Ideally, this is someone with an opinion on "Zope" as a whole and its
> place in the world. Jan Ulrich Hasecke has volunteered for this. I think 
> we may need two or three people for this role, though.
> 
>   o "Get" section content champion -- needs to complete this section,
> writing about grokproject, zopeproject and probably a manual/source
> install. Needs to write clear instructions that work on all target
> platforms. We can split this section into sub-pages if need be.
> 
>   o "Taste" section champion -- needs to complete this section with some
> "tasty" code examples that get people excited about Zope. They don't
> have to be 100% complete applications; rather, they should show what
> sets Zope apart. A developer should be able to read this and think "I
> could get with this". I think we can maybe adopt something from the
> Appetizers section on worldcookery.com, or invent new examples. They
> could use Grok or plain Zope 3. This probably requires something with a
> strong technical background. I'd love for this to be Philipp, since he
> always does well with this kind of thing in presentations and training,
> though I'm not sure how much time he'll have.
> 
>   o "Community" section champion -- needs to provide some details about
> the Zope mailing lists/forums and chatroom. Perhaps include etiquette as
> well. This can probably be cribbed from plone.org/support.
> 
> Then, we need a champion for each of the sub-projects. These are:
> 
>   - Zope 3 and the "Zope Libraries" -- this is the most important one in
> the short term!
> 
>   - Zope 2
> 
>   - CMF
> 
>   - ZODB
> 
> Grok has its own home page, though I think we should keep referring to
> it where it makes sense.
> 
> Please reply to this thread if you are interested in helping out! I know 
> various people have expressed an interest in the past. I hope they'll 
> reconfirm their commitment now. Hopefully, we can get the content 
> completed in a few weeks and then begin the move to making this the 
> thing that people see when they hit zope.org.
> 
> Cheers,
> Martin
> 

On Sat, Apr 5, 2008 at 8:52 AM, Martin Aspeli <optilude@...> wrote:
>  To that end, the website is divided up into sections:
>
>   - "Home" gives a quick overview and tries to get people excited
>
>   - "Get" gives download instructions for the impatient
>
>   - "Taste" whets the reader's appetite with some exciting code examples
> that explain how Zope is different
>
>   - "Projects" gives an explanation of how the different Zope projects fit
> together (Zope 2, Zope 3, Grok, CMF, ZODB). Each is then given a subfolder
> that contains a standard structure: A front page that explains the project
> in more detail, "Get" (downloads), "Taste" (as above, but for a particular
> project) and "Learn". The "Learn" section should contain relevant,
> up-to-date documentation.
>
>   - "Community" gives some details about how to join the Zope community
>
>   - "Foundation" links to the Foundation site for now. If the Foundation
> website maintainers want to move into this site in the future, they are of
> course more than welcome to.
>

I'm wondering where the "Documentation" section is?  I'd like to
volunteer for *that* section.  By the way, the design looks pretty
nice.


-- 
Paul Carduner
http://www.carduner.net

Am 05.04.2008 um 17:52 schrieb Martin Aspeli:
>
> You can see current state of play here: http:// 
> zode01.lovelysystems.com.
>
> The original design mockups from Oliver are here: http:// 
> woimmer.com/presenter/zope.org/1.html
>

Is there any reason why the current state differs from the mockup,  
which reflects the wireframes?

The whole section of "Who uses Zope" / What's in the box? / Who  
maintains Zope? is missing on the current site as well as the Special  
Announcement section.

The key feature section is not in the intended layout.

Are there technical problems with these sections?

Then a second question: How are these pages edited? Is it possible to  
have a try-out-account to see how all this works?

Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Jan Ulrich Hasecke

-- 
DZUG e.V. - Deutschsprachige Zope User Group - www.zope.de -  
www.dzug.org
Forster Straße 29 - 06112 Halle/Saale
Telefon +49 345 122 9889 9 - Fax +49 345 122 9889 1

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Admittedly I ignored this, as these kinds of calls has gone out for
years, and nothing happens. But this time it looks like it actually
*will* happen, which is great. So here is my 2 centimes:

On Sat, Apr 5, 2008 at 5:52 PM, Martin Aspeli <optilude@...> wrote:
>  The rumours are true. :) An effort has been going on for a while to improve
> the zope.org experience and thereby help make Zope more accessible to new
> users.

Yay!

>   - A great design by Oliver Ruhm, paid for by Lovely Systems
>   - A Plone 3 site hosted by Lovely Systems
>   - A skin for this site by Denis Mishunoff
>   - A skeleton content structure
>   - A plan for going forward

Yay!

>   - "Projects" gives an explanation of how the different Zope projects fit
> together (Zope 2, Zope 3, Grok, CMF, ZODB). Each is then given a subfolder
> that contains a standard structure: A front page that explains the project
> in more detail, "Get" (downloads), "Taste" (as above, but for a particular
> project) and "Learn". The "Learn" section should contain relevant,
> up-to-date documentation.

No!

Each project should have it's own site. Like Grok has today. The
Projects page which explains what they are and how they fit together
is fine, but the different subparts will necessarily have to be
maintained by slightly different people with slightly different
requirements.

We can set up rules so that both zope.org/Projects/grok and
grok.zope.org point to the same physical place, but it is extremely
important that we do not, once again, try to make a monolithic
zope.org.

Microsites, microsites, microsites!

>   - "Foundation" links to the Foundation site for now. If the Foundation
> website maintainers want to move into this site in the future, they are of
> course more than welcome to.

See above.

>  Grok has its own home page, though I think we should keep referring to
>  it where it makes sense.

Which is always.

-- 
Lennart Regebro: Zope and Plone consulting.
http://www.colliberty.com/
+33 661 58 14 64